In our first episode of The Safety View 2021! We will discuss organizational safety evolution. Together with you, we will reflect on where the philosophy and practice of safety has come from, where it is heading, the formative events that shift it, and any and all nuances of safety led by Host Lisa Lande. We trust the stories we share will be as varied as our audience, and at the same time, will weave together a pretty cohesive tale.
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00:33:02Lisa Lande:Welcome Kim and Rachel!
00:35:53Ron Gantt:This is a classic paper on automation that is a must read for this topic
00:38:50Lisa Lande:Thank you, Ron!
00:41:13Janice Fingler:What is worrisome is the lack of ethics around AI development and implementation. Do we trust it to self-organize or do with need to organize some ethical oversight. Lets we evolved into chaos?
00:43:00Ron Gantt:Reminds me of Jurassic Park - “Your scientists were so interested in figuring out if they could they never stopped to ask if they should.”
00:43:51Rosa Carrillo:Exactly Ron
00:44:55Lisa Lande:Folks, please mute if not speaking so we remove ambient noise. :-)
00:45:42Lisa Lande:Janice, you are describing complex factors and decision making nicely.
00:45:58Gary Wong:History shows Social adoption always lags Technological advances. Think of the printing press and book banning. Internet and Facebook, Twitter problems.
00:46:32Ron Gantt:Exactly. How long was Zoom around before we started using it regularly?
00:47:48Gary Wong:So…can we…should we…measure well-being? Or is it too complex and thus the best we can do in monitor?
00:48:52Ron Gantt:I’d say we can only monitor it
00:49:06Lisa Lande:I have a question for Bill: relative to decision trees and attempting to consider the myriad of potential contexts, can we truly ever think linearly about complexity in your opinion? Or do you think we can use a linear system to address nonlinearity?
00:49:23Gary Wong:Are we developing Recipe followers when we should be developing Chefs?
00:51:50Janice Fingler:Can we become chefs without starting as recipe followers - as Ron mentioned about new workers.
00:52:16Rosa Carrillo:Young people start as followers.
00:52:23Rosa Carrillo:Some quickly stop
00:52:33Ron Gantt:Often improv jazz musicians begin by learning scales
00:53:29Janice Fingler:I have been lead by 18 yr olds !
00:53:43Janice Fingler:who were very effective at it
00:53:49Lisa Lande:Amen, Janice!
00:54:32Lisa Lande:By 2 year olds too…who take the time to look at what’s around them in great detail.
00:55:14Lisa Lande:Love that Gary: let’s put signs around that encourage and reinforce what CAN be done. :-)
00:56:12Bill Nelson:The International Conference on Applied AI will be held in Norway in May. Because of Covid it will be virtual.
00:56:43Bill Nelson:There will be a session on legal and ethical issues
00:56:56Janice Fingler:Thanks BIll
00:57:18Caroline Pike:hi everyone, I just joined. sorry to be late ... Caroline Pike, IAEA
00:57:19Louise Hosking:Start from a position of "YES!"
00:57:39rachel:Nudge theory works much better
00:58:02Janice Fingler:From an evolutionary perspective, what is more comfortable for humans...Don't or do ?
00:59:55Bill Nelson:Lisa - Very interesting question. Linearity breaks down when unexpected conditions are encountered. However the success-oriented trees using critical safety functions (such as the safety objective trees used in the IAEA defense in depth guidance) can span the scope of unexpected, possibly non-linear phenomena.
01:03:01Janice Fingler:Can also include either/or AND both/and along a spectrum
01:03:36Lisa Lande:It’s difficult to realize or even conceive of this. That’s why I was hoping to hear from you about this at some point, if time permits and it fits back in. Or at a later date.
01:03:38Ron Gantt:To me, the point is that strategies that work in one context won’t work in another context.
01:04:28Lisa Lande:That was the point I was attempting to make Ron; it’s always contextual. It begs the question though, is there ever a Pure Right or Wrong..or PURE safety or Risk. Or is it always relative?
01:04:32Ron Gantt:So words like “human error,” “at risk behavior,” or “unsafe acts” make no sense because no behavior or act is always bad or at safe. It’s only when you supply a context that the action has a value point
01:05:18Ron Gantt:Good questions Lisa
01:05:21Lisa Lande:Right on. Exactly, Ron.
01:05:24Bill Nelson:Lisa- Let’s discuss later. I think this will be important to address the technological-ecological integration.
01:05:30Michael Ellerby:Hello all - apologies for being late. Several issues arising from a simple office relocation. Mainly sorted :)
01:05:37Lisa Lande:Yes, Bill.
01:06:03Rosa Carrillo:Hi Michael, welcome!
01:06:13Lisa Lande:Glad you’re with us, Michael!
01:07:56Lisa Lande:What do we do that’s common in relation to social relationships? How do we figure out, in novel situations, how do they adapt socially and in process? …Earl questions.
01:08:42Ron Gantt:To the first question, I’m in the middle of reading a good book that seeks to answer it
01:09:20Janice Fingler:From what Earl said, I'm getting that being able to recognize context and changing context is a key skill for today and the future!
01:09:37Rosa Carrillo:Absolutely Janice!
01:12:14Tamara Parris:Thank you Eral for the resource
01:13:24Lisa Lande:Jim! :-)
01:14:31Ron Gantt:The most important question in my mind about how people deal with crisis is about how people identify whether or not they are in a crisis
01:15:14Bill Stettiner Safety Malcontent:I hate how smart Ron is!
01:15:23Janice Fingler:Strangers can come together in a crisis without storming. What's different in organizations ?
01:15:37Tamara Parris:Hi Bill, been a bit since I have seen you! Welcome
01:15:54Bill Stettiner Safety Malcontent:Good to be here, just got off work
01:16:15Lisa Lande:Crisis vs opportunity, Ron. Maybe on a normal distribution however, we could say that what happened at the US Capitol yesterday might realize the 99 percentile of “crisis” :-)
01:16:27Jim Marinus:sorry to be late
01:16:33Lisa Lande:And Covid. And Fukishima. And…
01:16:36Ron Gantt:And some may have thought it an opportunity
01:16:48Lisa Lande:No worries, Jim. Great you’re here.
01:17:15Lisa Lande:Every crisis offers opportunity for opportunity.
01:17:32Lisa Lande:Resilience, yes?
01:19:01Ron Gantt:Risk is socially constructed
01:19:26Gary Wong:Dave Snowden video on Creativity & Innovation: https://youtu.be/IlmesbbPqtU
01:19:32Janice Fingler:Human perception of whether we are In a crisis vs approaching a crisis.. interesting.
01:20:21Rosa Carrillo:Ron human experience is socially constructed.
01:20:24Janice Fingler:In the field camps, we share stories - many of crises
01:20:46Janice Fingler:people apply those to their learning by proxy
01:21:19Jim Marinus:We can anticipate situations that will likely throw us into crisis
01:21:20Lisa Lande:Nice, Janice. Would like to chat at some point.
01:22:52Gary Wong:Need the capability for weak signal detection in order to trigger alerts and raise awareness
01:22:59Bill Stettiner Safety Malcontent:Hard Skills!
01:23:32Ron Gantt:David Woods calls what we are talking about graceful extensibility
01:25:31Bill Stettiner Safety Malcontent:"Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the face." Mike Tyson
01:26:11Gary Wong:Klein: RPD (rapid decision making)
01:26:12Lisa Lande:Ideal future space for org development: create “safe to fail” learning opportunities that allow workers to 1) read/recognize overt and covert cues in environment 2) make decisions based on these overt and covert cues, and 3) adapt, act, reflect - LEARN.
01:26:26Bill Nelson:Success-oriented perspectives would be more suited than failure-oriented retroactive perspectives.
01:26:37Gary Wong:SWAT teams are taught to use the Cynefin Framework for decision-making
01:26:58Rosa Carrillo:Great point Lisa
01:27:08Lisa Lande:Certainly in crisis work, Bill…though the pre crisis work would learn from both?
01:27:22Lisa Lande:That makes sense, Gary.
01:27:49Louise Hosking:Bill you are so right
01:28:15Janice Fingler:An an important question to ask of field teams - is what do you already know about any patterns of response to stress, crisis that you already have.
01:29:39Ron Gantt:That’s a good question to ask Janice
01:29:45Tamara Parris:are people ok to go over a few minutes?
01:29:57Ron Gantt:I have to jump off unfortunately. Thanks for the good conversation!
01:30:05Lisa Lande:Wayne: Fear dwindles and caution diminishes. How complacency comes to bear.
01:30:12Tamara Parris:Ok, can you share next then Ron?
01:32:40Audrey Silver:got to go - thanks all
01:33:04Tamara Parris:thank you Audrey for joining
01:33:12Tamara Parris:Thank you Ron for coming
01:33:33Lisa Lande:Rachel: Leader and follower knowledge brought about via Covid. And, Context matters, and emotional context particularly.
01:33:41Gary Wong:Possible topic: Distributed Leadership. What does it mean? Look like?
01:35:07Lisa Lande:Janice: what would happen if conversation was shifted to a space of universal language around safety and security…that regardless of discipline, we ALL care about this.
01:37:03Janice Fingler:Thank you for mentioning ISO31000 Michael, I'll check that out.
01:37:05Lisa Lande:Michael: reiterates Janice’s points. One language. And adds: how we identify mental health issues as this is risk too. THIS is safety too.
01:38:47wayne:We need to help people develop a strong mind set to avoid risk based on their knowledge and respect of risk they encounter rather than relying on their fear of it.
01:38:48Lisa Lande:Louise: How do we engage with the business community? The top of the org? (Maybe this links to universal language, Lisa adds?) Interested in how to capture those individuals and learn from their approach.
01:39:12Lisa Lande:Sustainability in business too.
01:39:36Janice Fingler:Integrated and interdependent sustainability in business/work
01:39:47Lisa Lande:Rosa: AI further exploration.
01:40:48Natalie Arnold:thank you so much everyone!!
01:40:57Louise Hosking:Great conversation #PowerSkills
01:41:00Michael Ellerby:Thanks - very enjoyable to hear sensible voices
01:41:01Bill Stettiner Safety Malcontent:And how we effect it
01:41:07kim.webber:How do we get on the invite list for the next session?
01:41:19Janice Fingler:Thank you so much!
01:41:51Earl Carnes:Paul Schulman asked me a couple of days ago, has Reliability reached the end of usefulness, and what comes next?
01:42:11Jim Marinus:In line with Ron's comment on Graceful Extensibility, how we foster the environment to create and sustain conversations around creating a shared understanding of how our complex operations are working
01:46:22Rosa Carrillo:Wayne: the Covid Crisis highlighted how fear dwindles as time goes on. It’s the same at work. How do we teach that a precaution needs to be followed even when not afraid. The emotional, wellbeing elements have come into the forefront by Covid. Help people grow their understanding that wellbeing, security and safety are one. Organizations like taking risk. How do we talk to them? Human and AI integration. Become more aware. Become knowledgable in human dynamics.
More About “The Safety View
Each one-hour session is hosted by an expert or stakeholder in safety performance. And each session invites all attendees to participate, listen, and learn from each other and through conversation and shared experiences. Collectively, we explore the human system’s impact on safety and performance - relationally, psychologically, and socially.
We look forward to discussing this intriguing topic with you, and hope you are able to attend. However, if unable to attend, please know that all sessions will be available for view, by registrants and non-registrants alike, through the Safeopedia websitehttps://www.safeopedia.com/topic/182/safeopedia-podcasts
After a brief introduction to the topic and sharing of relevant research, the floor will be open for group conversation. We invite ALL to share their thoughts, and will openly embrace - actually encourage - different perspectives. We really want to hear from all, from those who can share measurable, scientific concepts, those who have knowledge gained from experience, and those who intend to learn and understand more.
Group Rules of Conduct:
➤Build each other up to encourage and grow our ideas. Our group goal is to learn, share and expand our views.
➤ If you disagree, first repeat what you heard and get acknowledgement that you understand what others have tried to propose.
➤Use "I think", "feel", "have discovered" during respectful rebuttals of others opinions and ideas.
➤ Be prepared to agree, to disagree as views will be different, from our own and we want to nurture others.
Regular Hosts of the Safety View are:
Lisa Lande, Ph.D., Principal Consultant at Petricher Consulting, LLC, licensed psychologist, human and organizational factors; safety, culture and leadership coach and consultant.
Rosa Carrillo author of The Relationship Factor in Safety Leadership, safety leadership consultant, MS in Organizational development.
Tamara Parris, Community Development, Bachelors of Social Work, Occupational Health and Safety, and Emergency Management.